Choice and the 2010 Elections

Pro-choice? I assume that you think babies really appreciate that they have NO choice. We are in an age where we are grossly short of great leaders and statesmen. I often wonder how many MLKs, JFKs, Reagans, Einsteins, Jeffersons, etc... have been murdered before they ever had a chance. At a rate of 3700 A DAY in the USA, it is no wonder we see less of these great people than in times past. They are killed before they ever get a shot.

And since the over-whelming number of babies killed are black and hispanic, it really looks a LOT like genocide. Just saying...

93% of babies murdered by abortion are done so out of convenience. Murder as a form of convenience is wrong; -no matter the age or level of development of a HUMAN.

Sex has consequences. Gain some personal responsibility and DEAL WITH IT. If you are going to engage in sex, you need to think about the repercussions BEFORE you engage. If you can't afford birth control, then wear a condom, --they are FREELY obtained. If you can't find one, perhaps you shouldn't carry the responsibility of having sex at all. Your stupidity is no excuse for murdering an innocent HUMAN.

Quit murdering the kids. Give them a chance. They are our future.

Oh...and I also find it a bit hypocritical that you don't want the government (of the people) involved in your so-called "right" to kill a HUMAN embryo, but you want the same government to take taxpayer money to foot the bill.

Whatever. It was your "choice" to have sex with no protection. So it should be YOUR problem. Not mine. I have no idea why you think it is my responsibility to pay for your own stupidity. If you have a "right' to choose. You have a right to pay for it yourself. You have no right to screw your OWN life up and expect to take MY money to pay for it. That is called theft.

Nail, you are grossly misinformed.

A woman has a right to her body and it horrifies me to think that women could lose that right due to misinformation and unfair assumptions. The choice to raise, or not raise, a child is a choice every woman should be allowed to make for herself without interference from the government.

Not sure about Nail's comment about the government footing the bill. How is that happening? If a woman can pay for the procedure or have it covered by her insurance than it is her choice to make.

Please help in any way you can to make sure each woman maintains the right to her body and her future!

Yup, Nail, it's my choice. Not yours. I'm no longer shocked by your hypocritical language. But please - tell me about your clitoris. Tell me about your testicles. Tell me about your fluid secretions. Because you seem to be real concerned with mine. And it doesn't seem fair, you know, that you get to control and dominate my body through legislation without me finding out some about yours. Do you shave your pubic hair? How about wearing short skirts, or tight pants? Do you walk home with an erection after seeing an attractive woman? I really want to know. Since, you know, you want to know so much about my medical procedures or ability to have sexual intercourse.

It's about to get real, real personal.

Nail, I am pro-life. THE WOMAN'S LIFE! Not every woman seeking an abortion is a mindless whore.

Many women are making the mature decision to not bring a life into the world that she doesn't want. Your few pennies now saves you much more later, as you're not paying for these unwanted pregnancies when they grow up to be on welfare or in prison because their parents decided to have them even though they didn't actually want them and abused them once they had them.

Besides, I don't want my tax dollars paying for your head-in-the-sand abstinence only sex ed!

You're a fool, Nail. Abortion is population control. And they aren't babies, they're fetuses, a parasite of the womb. Your taxes are going to pay for the welfare of deadbeat drug induced parents with 6 or 7 kids they don't want.

Abortion is necessary. A child should not be a consequence or a burden or a problem. A child is the future. A woman who gets an abortion has a reason. And if that reason is convenience, so be it.

The only future that many of them have is group homes, foster care, drugs, violence, homelessness, and abuse. Many women that I have read about get abortions for 3 things: rape, incest, and because they are not in a situation to raise a child.

Abortion is not murder. It is the removal of a fetus. Obviously you don't know what murder is if you compare the humane removal of a fetus to someone butchering a 70 year old woman with an axe.

Nail, you are a fucking moron of epic proportions. People like you should have been aborted, you dont contribute anything to this world except the idea that it's ok to force women to be breathing incubators. You will never have the right to put laws and legislation on my body. And let's see just how so-called "pro-life" you are once the child is born, or turns out to be gay, or turns out to be a mass murderer, or something else that you would suspend your efforts to fight for it's rights. You are a dumbass fucking hypocrite, go die in a fire. Because I'm sure that's what you would like to do to women who have abortions and to doctors who provide them: kill them with fire. pro-life my ass, you anti-choice fucktard.

Let's get one thing clear Nail, victims of rape and incest do not have a "choice" when it comes to birth control!!! Not to mention the fact that birth control is not 100% effective. When people like you bitch and moan about the unborn do you even give any thought to the millions of children that have been born into this world and are suffering needlessly?! Priorities Please!!!!!!!! I could go on, but I'm pretty sure there's no helping such stupidity...TJP

Nail,

93% of all statistics without citation are complete BS, but you should definitely take your message that "Murder as a form of convenience is wrong" to your wingnut allies and maybe we can discuss womens rights without the pressure of thousands of american men and women dying overseas and maybe even not have to worry about physicians being gunned down in their churches.

In the meantime. GFY.

In case you don't know what that means, let me help you out: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gfy+meaning

Why should taxpayers have to pay for your abortions? If you want an abortion, pay for it yourself. Go get free birth control at any health department. You people think you are entitled to everything for free. Get off your butts and get a job. Maybe a little time spent working will take up all that time you're spending laying on your backs getting pregnant with a baby you want to kill.

Who are the most idiotic people on the facr of this planet? well most of them are newly elected to the House, but two of them dwell among us! Robyn and Nail are both so stupid, it is amazing how far their ignorance stretches. Both obviously have incredible privilege, which is why Nail can never understand te situation of a woman who needs an abortion and Robyn can never understand someone who struggles financally. Both of you can go back to sucking the Tea Baggers balls now. Buh bye.

Britt, you took the words right out of my mouth!! Robyn is so pathetic that she believes everyone that receives an abortion is on state insurance....the truth is, anyone that I know that has had one has had to pay cash for it.

Jessica suggests that someone here CHOSE to have sex without protection and attributes this choice to stupidity.

Excuse me? CHOSE? What do you think happens when your public schools teach "Abstinence Only"? Kids who are not taught about using protection will either not use protection at all or they will use it incorrectly because they haven't been taught how to use it correctly.

Would someone please explain to me why it seems as though the very same people opposed to abortion are also opposed to teaching protection?

Nail suggests that the great leaders of history might not have existed had abortion been around in their time. Abortion has been around in many forms for thousands of years. Roe V. Wade only decriminalized it in a country, this country, where legislators had criminalized it. While we are on this, great leaders are not simply born, they are raised, and forcing an unprepared mother to raise a child is not likely to lead to an ideal childhood.

Would someone please explain to me why it is apparently considered reasonable to insult those seeking to retain the option of Safe and Legal abortions. Not everyone is willing to abstain from sex except when actually trying to make babies. That's fine for you if it fits with your spirituality and limited libido, but please don't try to make the rest of us live like nuns.

The fact that abortion has been around for a long time is not a reason to decriminalize it. By that yardstick we would have to decriminalize nearly every crime. They're all as old as the human race. Elective abortion is the widespread practice of killing unwanted babies to avoid the consequences of promiscuous sex. It is the taking of human life without due process of law. It denies any rights to the father or grandparents. It opens the way (as we are now finding out) to the elimination of the old and otherwise "useless" people in society. It produces terrible regret and trauma in many women who avail of it. In other words it is seriously detrimental both personally and socially. A society that tolerates unrestricted abortion cannot survive. I am not trying to "insult those seeking to retain the option of Safe and Legal abortions". I am stating the truth, at the risk of offending some. The future of our society demands it.

Sarah sounds like a brainwashed concern troll. Believe me when I say this Sarah, I used to believe everything you just said. I was hardcore "pro-life" because of all the lies I was spoon fed at my catholic school. But then i started doing my own research and finally found out what a farce i had believed in. you will feel incredibly stupid and cheated when you also make that transition. the fact of the matter is, one side has no evidence for their claims and so the only thing they can do is lieand use scare tactics to get their way. and on the pro-choice side, we base our information off logic and facts (one of them being that most women who have abortions dont even give it a second thought. it doesnt make them regret or have mental problems. what is the cause of their distress comes from the stigma associated with abortion and how they think society would view them if they knew.) the pro-choice side puts the women beforethe fetus and so they care about women more. the anti-choice side puts the life of a potential human over the life of an already living person with a life she has built for herself, many times even in the case that her life may be at stake. to me that is as disgusting as you can get, treating women simply as a vessel for birthing purposes and less than human. so dont you dare tell me the "pro-life" side cares about women because is, and always has been, a lie.

It is my opinion only but the pro lifers appear to be using the arguement when it fits their purpose. 1. These are the same people who complain about minorities on welfare having too many children 2. I would have to ask how many unwanted children they have adopted 3. Did you support the war in Iraq? a lot of innocents murdered.... 4. Do you support the death penalty? 5. If your daughter as a 13 year old was a victim of rape by someone of another ethnicity please do not be so sanctimonious as to say you would keep the child and love it. It is a person who has the choice on what to do with their life their health mental stability and future. And why is it that abortion is used as a tool to judge morals by a group that advocates war, death penalty, disparity of treatment of minorities in the judicial system the list goes on and on.

@sarah - "Elective abortion is the widespread practice of killing unwanted babies to avoid the consequences of promiscuous sex." - really? Are rape or incest victims "promiscuous"? You also say "It denies any rights to the father or grandparents." - I'm sorry, my rapist or molester doesn't have any rights and should have ZERO say in what I CHOOSE to do about the consequences of their violating MY rights and my body. As far as grandparents' rights go, talk to an attorney. In most states, grandparent rights are at the bottom of consideration in custody battles, so to assume they might have greater rights over a fetus is ludicrous. So please - when you say you are "only stating the truth", you might want to instead say "I'm only stating MY truth". It IS offensive and it's certainly not mine.

I think Nail, Sarah, Robyn, et al don't bother to see the full social ramifications of what they are advocating.

If you outlaw abortion abortions will still go on and now you will have two lives lost (the mother and the fetus whom they consider on par with an already born human being).

They say use contraception but so many in their movement are against that and sex ed that would make abortion rare. No conception = no need for abortion. The Nordic countries have the most liberal abortion laws but some of the lowest abortion rates thanks to sex ed from early age, access to contraceptives and the knowledge to use them, openness about discussing sex and avoiding STD's and unwanted pregenency, and a social welfare system that allows women the viable option to "choose life."

To talk about us "killing" the MLK's, Einstiens, etc. is pure imagination. The poor unwanted disadvantaged baby could just as easily be another Hitler or Al Capone. If you want to develop our talented people it it through education and a caring environment and not in the luck of the draw.

The discussion of using other people's money to pay for abortions is one of penny wise and pound foolish. Government funded abortions are much cheaper than welfare, prisons etc. If you wanted to take the pro-life position then the movement must insist that certain defense programs be curtailed, foreign occupations ended, and tax cuts for Wallstreet be recinded. This is as likely as a snow storm in Hell.

Not to wish anyone any bad luck but let them and their daughters get an unwanted pregency and see how they react. If they are rich they will fly out of country and get an abortion. If they are of modest means they will either try unsafe methods or have the child and land up resenting it.

Finally the pro-life movement since it likes using government to get into people's lives needs to make the MEN that get the women pregnant to become legally, morally and financially responsible for the woman and her offspring. This will not fly since it will cause many men across the political spectrum to be more supportive of the pro-choice cause.

While I don't like to think of this but maybe it will have to take the criminalization of abortion and birth control to force millions of currently politically inactive women to become active. I read that if everyone that has ever had an abortion, used birth control or had pre-marital sex would stand up and once and say "enough!!" this issue would go away.

I've read that the main reason for the emotional response to abortion over other forms of "pro-life" issues such as war, starvation, disease, etc. is that it comes down to men's image of having the power to impregnate women and keep them pregnant. To give women the freedom of if, when, how many frees them from this power men have over women. Food for thought.

Many years ago, I went on a local T.V. talk show, supposedly a confrontation between "Pro-life" and "Pro-choice" people. I stood up, and said that with present methods of birth control, at least 96% of unwanted pregnancies could be prevented. Remember, Birth Control Prevents Abortion.

With hormonal implants, that figure is now at least 99.9%. And implants at least are totally immune to the intentions of a rapist.

When * and I decided to start having sex, the first thing that we decided was to research birth control. And this was back in the late 60's, in the back seat of a '59 Chevy. We did not have any failures.

This is the sort of thing that is commonly done in the Benelux countries, and much of Northern Europe. Their abortion rates are a fraction of ours. Talk to your children. Get your schools to talk to your children. And if they're teaching Abstinence Only, sue them.

I am looking forward to the day when abortions, except for medical reasons, will be obsolete.

How we make light of it all.

Even though, I am told, women normally don't take getting an abortion lightly.

Most think about it real good first, so I am told. After all, I do respect they might be under stress. I understand this. I respect this. I do.

Maybe woman do think long and hard first. Or maybe they feel they do. But have they thought clearly? I understand women do regret their earlier decisions. I believe this happens. Circumstances change. We change. But the child does not come back. Ever. The abortion is forever. Block it out the best you can. It was wrong but you are forgiven.

One size don't fit all. I understand. Others have other concerns. Issues. Circumstances. Problems.

How we try to justify difficult situations away, though. Hard cases. I understand.

Yet, how we find it easy to just blame the guy who "got her pregnant". Please stop. And this one: the globe has too many people on it already anyway. This list is simply endless. On and on.

Just find some outside reason for the projecting the hardship. Others never have issues. It is gender specific. Here is where maybe all this resentment comes from? I don't know.
It all sounds like wasted, displaced (and hardened) human rebellion to me. This school of pro death thought; it needs the weed killer, not the child killer!
Sorry if I am sounding cold.

How we like to try presenting reasonable sounding jargon to make it all sound so justified, "necessary", urgent, right and no ones business. Wrap the wrong by phrasing it's about my body.

Emergency! Emergency! She needs an abortion! The fanatics are trying to force her to raise the child! Huh?

Those church people? They're the threat? (I am not a church person myself but..come on, you can't just nicely tell them you are not interested have a good day?)

You want to make the world a better place by spitting on the church people? I guess some of us really do care about those mostly outside the womb.

On and on.

Lifers don't care about woman or the born you know. One could go on. And on.

The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of abortions really aren't necessary. So why are they taking place?

We take abortion too, too lightly. Go down and expect to have it paid for too? Excuse me? Most do not approve of this. Poll after poll. Oh, because it is ultimately cheaper. Ok.

Having legal restraints and even bans to this would be a good thing. I tend to think it would help make those in the abortion business a little more keen to what they are doing. Obviously they are too close and probably numb to see why they should step back into another light for awhile.

In conclusion, one thing I have learned in many a year of being pro life: Try to get myself and the opposing side to take one long, deep breath.

So many of the comments above are so emotional based. Have known emotions too.

But in the end, they sucker punch us...often in quite a painful way....even many years later. Why all the emotion? Why lash out with profanity and meanness?--- And I do mean MEAN!

Ah, who is suppose to be the caring ones outside the womb? I forgot again.

Yes, I have heard all the arguments of those for the legal right to take the child out.

I have considered them.

I understand humans are going to have sex. Don't promote abortion as a back up plan for it's consequences, dear planned parenthood.

"Planned Parenthood?" Doesn't even sound right.

We are talking Sal Alinsky here. Those in the abortion business are the seedy types. Probably always have been. Probably always will be.

Are you going to adopt an "unwanted" child?

My sister did. She did. And I am happy to honestly tell you, in this case, as in so many, it is all working!! We can all cheer this?

I swear.

If pro choice folk could someday chill, think outside their box and mantra, tone down the emotion, abort their misandrist views, change their hearts, we could raise all these children together collectively, civilly, easily--like growing flowers... even surprisingly well.

Yes, it could be done. If we came together. You see, pro choice sentiment isn't the answer, if I may break the news to you. The answer is changing how we view things. And pro choice is, I think, slowly losing its hold. If the polls on the young are indicative.

We could work together on responsible prevention.

This is going to be the only real way to resolve this issue once and for all and bring all people together for the better world we talk about. But we can't if we spend our time fighting about who is right. Which life is worth more? On and on.

Bottom line: all life is precious. It includes the life in the womb.

Wow carmen, you wasted a whole lot of time spouting off a crapload of, well, crap thinking that you would be able to present some kind of argument. well, in actuality, you just assured me more that the ignorant, willfully idiotic, anti-choice assholes, such as yourself, have nothing to say and are still just as evil and stupid as ever. get the fuck out of here, and take your self-righteous bullshit with you. ABORTIONS NOW, LEGAL, SAFE, AND WITHOUT APOLOGY.

Also i just want to add that yes, emotions are flying high in this debate and i dont see anything wrong with that, i think it's completely natural in this circumstance because frankly, i find it incredibly offensive when some fucking anti-choice ass comes aroun treating me, or any other women, as some kind of baby making recepticle devoid of any humanity just because there happens to be a potential human living off of us. And don't even try and deny it, there is no other way to put it if you believe a woman should be denied her basic human rights for the sake of a not fully developed human. By the way, all you so-called "pro-lifers" are nothing more than pro-birth. Are you at all concerned about that precious human life after it's born and needs to be taken care of? do you even care if that child will be abused by its parents who were forced, by you, to birth it and take care of it for the rest of their lives? do you even care that most of the douchebags on your side of the spectrum (i.e. conservatives and republicans) are the same fucktards who want to repeal healthcare for most of those low income families who had no options or were forced into having their kids by religious fanatics like you? that they want to repeal welfare options and take money from schools in low income communities to fund their godamn private schools for their little spoiled brats who can afford it?

see, do any of you ever think this through? if you really care about and want to help women, you will MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS AND GIVE WOMEN THEIR FUCKING DIGNITY TO MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICE IN PEACE AND GET OFF YOUR FUCKING HIGH HORSES. you are doing NOTHING to help women or society by preaching against birth control, spreading slut-shaming views, denying women their choice, and then denying them the care they need to raise a child in a somewhat stable environment. so shut the hell up and get the hell off this blog if you are anti-choice. END OF DISCUSSION.

Britt, obviously YOUR "emotions are flying high". I suggest you drop the personal attacks on those who disagree with you. Also please stop the use of abusive language. It generally betrays an inability to present a reasoned argument. And stick to the issues. No women are being forced into having kids, as you say. There is an obvious way to avoid having kids (until the woman is ready and willing to raise them). It's called exercising responsibility. It is expected of all of us, both in our actions and our language.

Britt, obviously YOUR "emotions are flying high". I suggest you drop the personal attacks on those who disagree with you. Also please stop the use of abusive language. It generally betrays an inability to present a reasoned argument. And stick to the issues. No women are being forced into having kids, as you say. There is an obvious way to avoid having kids (until the woman is ready and willing to raise them). It's called exercising responsibility. It is expected of all of us, both in our actions and our language.

Sarah, people like you don't deserve a civil discussion because your brain is too small to understand any of the complexities when having to deal with abortion. Also you weigh your opinions on the concept that the only purpose of sex is to reproduce. How sad for you, to be so ashamed of your sexuality. It's disgusting when slut-shaming views are so deeply embedded in a woman that she cant even see what a ploy it is to get her to hate her own body and natural urges. Now i will say this again, you have no argument, no facts to back up your anti-choice claims, and no power here because frankly, abortion will continue to be legal now and forever. And so i say to you, get over your fucking self-righteous self and get out of this blog. trolling is most unattractive.

I'm merely asking you to stick to the issues. Who is forcing you, me or any woman to bear children against her will in this country? And please don't deliver any more tirades or engage in name-calling. They merely strengthen the suspicion that you have no answer to give.

Britt, I said, after my first and last post above, I would not bother posting again. Felt I said my piece. I mentioned that I have been pro life for many years and have long come to learn, due to the emotion this issue can bring, to try very, very hard to take deep breaths and not inflame. Confrontations are counter productive.

I am going against my earlier thinking to just not respond in this blog again here. I am going against my earlier thinking not to respond because of my hunch you are someone that is likely to be going through something....something that is difficult for you? I could be wrong. But if you are, no matter what it is, what you have done or haven't done or how you feel....I hope you can find your "peace", your way through it.

One time in my life I found myself full of deep, intense anger such as yourself and vowed to the end of my time I would rise above the injustice I was facing. And injustice it was. Problem was, I responded to it totally wrong....

Forward the tape a good 25 years and you know what? That situation, that anger did come back to ultimately make me less of a person. You do things in anger you regret later. You say things that others remember for a long time. You don't see things except how you want to see them. You cant take it back. Also, we do not think clear under intense anger. And it digs us in deeper.

I wish I knew all this myself years ago like I do now. But I have to live with all that wasted emotions, rueing the time it just took from my life. We go through hard times. A wise person, which I wasn't, would have harnessed it more productively, but I couldn't. I had no idea how to survive other than just let my anger go freely.

After all these years I have finally got so I could function, but the cold truths about why I became so angry was because I was not able to see myself as being ultimately responsible for the things I got myself into. My own actions got me into situations that made my life hard. And sister, that is really, really hard to come to face. Looking at myself.

If i knew you, I would do what I could to help you if you needed it. All I can do here and now is recommend ABJECTIVE counseling (if you are not already doing that). Maybe you need to forgive yourself or let something go. (I am not a religious person but if you are that type of thing might help you through it). If all those things don't work, just try to catch yourself from lashing out...go for long walks by yourself.

I think you are a good person deep down. While we don't agree with each others views, let's call a truce?

I have a hunch that even those on your side detect you have too much anger going on. That is not a good thing.

"Choose" to live happily. Love freely. Laugh heartily. Don't curse an unborn child for land's sake.

We appreciate conversation here on BlogForChoice. As a reminder, please keep all responses civil and language respectful.

--BlogForChoice Administrator

Heh, it amuses me that both of the anti-choice persons here assume that the only way i could ever possibly be concerned about the well-being of women and the issue of abortion is if i had one myself, just like you can't possibly care about the gay rights movement unless you are gay or you can't care about animal rights unless you are vegan. Well, sorry to burst your bubble but I have never been pregnant and ergo, i have never needed to have an abortion. I used to be hardcore pro-life to the point where I thought that women who had illegal abortions and were in danger of losing their life deserved to die for the murder of their child. I was just like the two of you (and dont pretend like you dont want women who have abortions to suffer because deep down, all you anti-choicers really do. otherwise you would understand the plight of women in todays time.)

Anyway, so no I dont "need help" and i sure dont need anyone pretending to be a good christian by "feeling sorry for me". And you know what? neither do women who have actually had abortions. you dont realize it yet, but just the way you look down at you perky little virgin noses at us (and of course you have to be virgins unless you are married right? otherwise you are more hypocritical than i thought) the pro-choice movement looks down on you for being so completely ignorant and not knowing the true situation about abortion, but instead basing your platform off lies and faux concern. go ahead and say your meaningless prayers for the "poor, uninformed women who know not what they do" because we feel the exact same sentimnt about you. i feel bad for you that you are so misguided and so ashamed of your own sexuality, the sexuality of women and how we are stuck in a world that either requires us to be nuns or whores and nothing inbetween. i hope that one day you will see the truth and stop forcing women to be baby-making machines that are expendable as long as they get the job done. thank you for affirming my position on this issue even more than i already had, i tend to get a bit soft on you anti-choicers when i haven't had a debate in a while, although i would hardly call yourefforts an argument. valient efforts, but not even close to providing valid points :)

@ carmen

while i am still offended by the snarkyness of your first post and your anti-choice views, i can appreciate that you would have liked to call a truce. i am willing to call a truce with anyone who may be personally against abortion but would not try and implement laws to change it and can respect the choice of all women. i would never force a women to have an abortion who made her choice to give birth, even if i disagreed and didnt think she was ready to have a child, so i expect the same kind of respect from the other side, but unfortunately they will not give it. i respect your view in the sense that you are allowed to have that view. but i dont respect that you come onto a pro-choice thread and start preaching your views and attempting to shame/demonize women who have had abortions. i may have been juvenile in my addressing you earlier in this blog, bhut it was juvenile of you to come around preaching like you are some kind of saint. and if you have ever tried to pass legislation that would have harmed women by restricting their access to abortion, i can never respect you. im sorry, but in those cases if i did not agree with something hut realized i would be infringing upon a human right of someone else by voting to take it away, i would not vote at all but remain neutral since that is the right thing to do. but if you cant even try to understand anything but your own self-righteousness, then we cannot talk civilly. So either take that or leave it.

i will say this though, at least you are not like sarah who is completely ignorant and rude (which in turn, i was rude back in the hopes she would get the hint), you do actually have a degree of compassion.

Dear Britt, being "personally against abortion but would not try and implement laws to change it" is the fundamental pro choice position. It is no more acceptable than refraining from owning slaves but being willing to allow a pro-slavery neighbor to own them. A serious human injustice is involved here and no "truce" will work that allows that injustice to continue.

The "pro choice" rhetoric may sound seductive and may have conned a lot of women into thinking abortion is a good thing, or at least a necessary evil. As a woman, I resent the deception involved in promoting abortion as something "good for women". It is personally and socially destructive. It is also something promoted by subversive elements within society to destroy our great country. I will not condone anyone wrecking my country while pretending to "liberate" me.

Sorry if this sounds "ignorant and rude" to you. But after the histrionics (a very kind description) you displayed in your posts (before I even posted, despite your claim that I was rude first and you merely over-reacted to the provocation, what a crock!) against Nail and others, I imagine that any hint of disapproval of the cherished "pro choice" position is dubbed "ignorant and rude" or much worse.

"Hardcore pro life", gee, that's not a phrase that's used by pro lifers or former pro lifers. Also anyone who was ever in the pro life movement knows well that they don't wish women to die for having abortions. How is a former ardent pro lifer so uninformed about pro lifers? Come clean, Britt.

HAHA YOU talk about deception? Try the various anti-choice "crisis pregnancy centers" that refuse to define themselves as pro-life based clinics and why is that? Because they know that if they do so, they cannot con women into coming into their offices to shame them into having a baby because an abortion will destroy their soul. Or how about this, all the misinformation that is given regarding abortion like, all women suffer mental problems after having an abortion, or you will become infertile after having an abortion (which is true in some cases, but certainly not in all) or that abortion is directly linked to breast cancer. And let's not stop there! Let's tell these impressionable women that using condoms does not protect from STDs and HIV and that they are murdering millions of potential babies from coming into existence! YOUR WHOLE PLATFORM IS BASED ON LIES AND DECEPTION SO I DONT EVEN WANT TO HEAR IT FROM YOU.

And excuse me for just a moment, did you just put the idea out there that if someone believes that slavery is ok that they are allowed to keep slaves and that someone who believes that slavery is wrong is supposed to be OK with it?? Wow...now I am 100% sure you anti-choicers are insane, you don't need to tell me twice.

You find it interesting eh? Glad to see I have enlightened you and taught you something (I didn't think it would be that easy!) I am amused that you feel that there are no such persons in the "pro-life" movement that are hypocritical in their beliefs. Oh I met many a person who believes that women should be imprisoned and put to death even for having an abortion. I would say about 98% of the people I know who are "pro-life" also support the death penalty and agree with the war in iraq. I guess being "pro-life" only means that you care about life that doesn't exist yet, oh yea, because those lives are "innocent" and "don't deserve to die" but other already living persons do deserve to die as long as we decide they are evil people. It's all just too convenient, isn't it? Just go slither back into the hole you came from. You are just proving to me more and more that you are sick person who cares about a blob of tissue more than a living, breathing woman with hopes, dreams, aspirations, and a built life for herself.

@ Sarahs slavery comment

I misunderstood what you said. But after re-reading it, your example is not even close to the issue of abortion. You example is based on personal opinion: you think abortion is an injustice and so you compare it to slavery, which involved at least two fully grown living, breathing, human beings by the way, and not a blob and a human. also, a human right was distinctly being taken away in the case of slavery because an actual human being was being treated like an animal, less than human. this is not the same case with a bundle of cells.

Yes I keep saying "a blob" because that is essentially what an embryo is, which is what exists inside of most women who get abortions. Most abortions take place within the first 8 weeks, and that is before it is even considered a fetus yet.

And in fact, my statement about being personally against something but not making an active effort to change it is justified because it is the same thing as gay marriage, or pot smoking. if it's how you live your life, and you do not harm anyone else in the process or affect anyone else life or choice, then they do not have the right to try and take that away from you. now in your opinion, there is a life being affected but you know what? your opinion is just that, an opinion and not fact because the abortion debate still goes on to this day and there is no universal definition of when life begins. and plus, i have the law on my side which states that abortion is legal and even though there are those that contest that, just like there are those that contest the right for blacks to be full citizens and there are those that contest women being outside the household, these people are misguided and put their beliefs solely into what they are comfortable with and not comfortable with, not with what will actually benefit society as a whole.

again i say this: i do not take away a woman's right to have a baby. i do not make a law that states that if i don't think a woman is ready to have a child, or that i think someone is unfit to have a child in their life, ever, i do not try and ban them from doing so. however, you seem to think it's ok to force all women who get pregnant to have their baby and not make their own choice about it. YOU think it is ok to take the choice away from a woman that you disagree with, and if you can't understand that, i am not surprised, but it infuriates me that people like you are so hypocritical.

I find it amazing that you were once a pro lifer, yet it took 2 readings (if not more) of my post to understand the point comparing abortion to slavery. Must be a long time since you changed your mind. And even more amazing to me is the fact that you say there is no universal definition of when life begins. Try reading William's Obstetrics, used to train obstetricians all over the country. It states unequivocally that when conception occurs, a new human life begins. And it describes that new creature as a second patient.

@ Sarah's comment about William's Obstetrics being the be all/end all definition used for when human life begins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_life#Biological_markers

I suggest you take a look at this article, while I normally do not cite wikipedia articles for much of anything, I do reference the page for a foundation of ideas that my later research will contain. There is NO set in stone universal definition of when life begins, end of discussion. While a lot of people may agree when they 'think' life begins, there is no agreed upon definition, otherwise abortion would be illegal and classified as murder.

Also I would not put so much faith into your William's Obstetrics book, as there have been many critiques of it. See this link for more info http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595015/ While it may not have to do with the definition of life part, it does address some other issues with the book regarding pregnant women. It would be wise to not allow a book run your life and opinions, eh?

And yes, I was pro-life a long time ago (6 years ago to be precise.) Well, maybe it does not seem like that long to some, but for me it seems like an eternity ago. And I based my opinions off of nothing more than what I was told/taught about abortion from a Catholic perspective. I did not do any of my own research, I did not have any pro-choice friends, and I certainly did not get the other side of the perspective about abortion. It was all a ploy to try and keep the truth from me and it has been this same way for millions of women. And I find it interesting that anytime I call your "pro-life" side out on something, like deception, hypocrisy, blatant lying, underlying motives, etc, you completely avoid talking about that. No ammo to use, it must be tough to keep fighting this losing battle, hm?

Also your abortion = same as slavery example (and a very bad example at that) is still just an opinion and nothing more, sorry :)

What's the point in referring to the Journal of Perinatal Education? It doesn't challenge the assertion that human life begins at conception. If you have to challenge the competence of the people who produce official obstetrical textbooks, you have a petty tough case to prove. It seems you are as willing to dismiss scientific findings as easily as dismiss what you were "spoon fed" at catholic school?

When you "call out" the pro lifers for "blatant lying" etc, I leave it unanswered simply because you pesent no credible evidence and cite no verifiable examples. You merely make accusations. I can just as easily say your accusations are untrue. Since you make the charge, the burden of proof (producing the ammo as you say) is on you, not me.

Oh no, the slavery - abotion analogy is not a bad one. Slavery and abortion are quite alike. It was not good enough for the abolitionists to not own slaves but let their neighbors do so. I trust I need not elaboate on that point. Neither is it enough for pro lifers to avoid abotion themselves while letting anyone else have abortions or promote the practice, in other words approve of elective abortion. In both cases a serious injustice is involved, and silence or inaction equals complicity.

You ignorance is laughable. You obviously have no point to try and defend anymore and are just gasping to stay afloat. I see that logic will not work on you, if you cannot even see the difference between abortion and slavery which had basically nothing in common. And you do not deny the charges I make against you and your "pro-life" terrorists (death threats, desire for a theocracy, bombings, so yes domestic terrorisrm.) Since you cannot be reasoned with and you choose to be willfully ignorant, there is nothing left to do except humor your archaic views and opinions. Go ahead and whine because you will not win in the end. In 2012 the tea party will be no more and you anti-choicers will lose your short held corruption once and for all. And once more, thank you for assuring that my view is 100% correct :)

Also you're right. There is absolutely no possibility that a book that was first published in 1904 could be sexist in any way whatsoever, and especially a book written pre roe v. wade that has been revised medically over the years but of course not socially. And a lot of people believe it right? Let's just go based on that. I mean it worked when geoligists were absolutely certain at one time that the earth was flat.

Oh I see the DIFFERENCES between slavery and abortion alright. I also see the very relevant SIMILARITIES. You don't see the SIMILARITIES. I'll bet (no I know) most people do. Are you smarter than they are?

"...death threats, desire for a theocracy, bombings, so yes domestic terrorisrm". Substantiate those accusations. Don't dump and run. Aren't you ashamed to indulge in such cowardice? What pro lifer made death threats and when? What pro lifer bombed anything and when? Who is advocating theocracy? You know, as does everyone else, that none of the violent acts reported against the abortion establishment can be attributed to pro lifers. They were the work of deranged individuals who had no connection with the pro life movement and whose actions were condemned by the pro lifers emphatically. They are not part of pro life any more than the murderous Rap Brown and the other machine gun toting elements of the sixties were allies of Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. They existed on the fringe of the movement and were roundly disowned by Rev. King and the responsible people in Civil Rights efforts.

If you want to hold pro lifers responsible for the actions of the freaks mentioned above then you must hold the pro abortionists responsible for the numerous times men have killed or abused their girl friends or wives,who refused to have an abortion. You must also hold Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry accountable for the many well documented and well published cases (no dumping and running here. I can cite them for you in all their lurid evil if you wish) where the abortion industry has concealed child molestation and incestuous behavior and sent the unfortunate young girl back to the abusive situation she came from having first aborted her and gotten paid for it, often with taxpayers' money.

Your prediction about 2012 is interesting. I don't know if the Tea Party will still exist then, nor does it worry me. I do know this: Abortion on demand (elective abortion) is as un-American as any monarchy or other repressive systm ever was, and it will not and cannot prevali in this great country.

You really must be an idiot to think that the pro-life movement has nothing to do with acts of terrorism and violence. Two words: Scott Schroeder. Look him up, read and weep because you are really the one looking like a fool here. Plus, why are you here again? Oh yea, to spew a bunch of crap from your mouth in an attempt to try and change minds and save souls, how adorable.

You keep pressing me to give hard facts, yet you feel it is appropriate to make claims like "If you want to hold pro lifers responsible for the actions of the freaks mentioned above then you must hold the pro abortionists responsible for the numerous times men have killed or abused their girl friends or wives,who refused to have an abortion. You must also hold Planned Parenthood and the abortion industry accountable for the many well documented and well published cases (no dumping and running here. I can cite them for you in all their lurid evil if you wish) where the abortion industry has concealed child molestation and incestuous behavior and sent the unfortunate young girl back to the abusive situation she came from having first aborted her and gotten paid for it, often with taxpayers' money." And yes you did dump and run. I should not have to ask for it, and I am not even going to deny that it is possibly true. Is ANY organization without fault? No, never. But from what has been proven to me by fact, not lies, not deceit, not women-hating assholes with nothing better to do than enforce patriarchy, Planned Parenthood has done more good for all people in our society than the pro-life movement could ever fathom, let alone accomplish. The "pro-life" movement is a sham, always has been, always will be. And if you cannot see their agenda, then you are blind, simple as that.

Anyhoo, you want some facts? Well here you go.

* March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn of Pensacola, Florida was fatally shot during a protest. He had been the subject of wanted-style posters distributed by Operation Rescue in the summer of 1992. Michael F. Griffin was found guilty of Dr. Gunn's murder and was sentenced to life in prison.

* August 21, 1993 Dr. George Patterson, was shot and killed in Mobile, Alabama, but it is uncertain whether his death was the direct result of his profession or rather a robbery.[6][7]

* July 29, 1994: Dr. John Britton and James Barrett, a clinic escort, were both shot to death outside another facility in Pensacola. Rev. Paul Jennings Hill was charged with the killings. Hill received a death sentence and was executed on September 3, 2003.

* December 30, 1994: Two receptionists, Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols, were killed in two clinic attacks in Brookline, Massachusetts. John Salvi, who prior to his arrest was distributing pamphlets from Human Life International,[8] was arrested and confessed to the killings. He died in prison and guards found his body under his bed with a plastic garbage bag tied around his head. Salvi had also confessed to a non-lethal attack in Norfolk, Virginia days before the Brookline killings.
* January 29, 1998: Robert Sanderson, an off-duty police officer who worked as a security guard at an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, was killed when his workplace was bombed. Eric Robert Rudolph, who was also responsible for the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing, was charged with the crime and received two life sentences as a result.
* October 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot to death at his home in Amherst, New York. His was the last in a series of similar shootings against providers in Canada and northern New York state which were all likely committed by James Kopp. Kopp was convicted of Dr. Slepian's murder after finally being apprehended in France in 2001.
* May 31, 2009: Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by Scott Roeder as he served as an usher at his church in Wichita, Kansas.[9]

[edit] Attempted murder, assault, and threats

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[10] Attempted murders in the U.S. included:[5][11][12]

* August 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller was shot outside of an abortion facility in Wichita, Kansas. Shelley Shannon was charged with the crime and received an 11-year prison sentence (20 years were later added for arson and acid attacks on clinics).
* July 29, 1994: June Barret was shot in the same attack which claimed the lives of James Barrett, her husband, and Dr. John Britton.
* December 30, 1994: Five individuals were wounded in the shootings which killed Shannon Lowney and Lee Ann Nichols.
* October 28, 1997: Dr. David Gandell of Rochester, New York was injured by flying glass when a shot was fired through the window of his home.[13]
* January 29, 1998: Emily Lyons, a nurse, was severely injured, and lost an eye, in the bombing which also killed Robert Sanderson.
* May 21, 1998: Three people were injured when acid was poured at the entrances of five abortion clinics in Miami, Florida.[14]

[edit] Anthrax threats

The first hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting; since then, there have been 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.[11][15]

* November 2001: After the genuine 2001 anthrax attacks, Clayton Waagner mailed hoax letters containing a white powder to 554 clinics. On December 3, 2003, Waagner was convicted of 51 charges relating to the anthrax scare.

[edit] Arson, bombing, and property crime

According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[10] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[16] More recent incidents have included:[5]

* December 25, 1984: An abortion clinic and two physicians' offices in Pensacola, Florida were bombed in the early morning of Christmas Day by a quartet of young people (Matt Goldsby, Jimmy Simmons, Kathy Simmons, Kaye Wiggins) who later called the bombings "a gift to Jesus on his birthday."[17][18][19]
* October 1999: Martin Uphoff set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, causing US$100 worth of damage. He was later sentenced to 60 months in prison.[20]
* May 28, 2000: An arson at a clinic in Concord, New Hampshire on resulted in damage estimated at US$20,000. The case remains unsolved.[21]
* September 30, 2000: John Earl, a Catholic priest, drove his car into the Northern Illinois Health Clinic after learning that the FDA had approved the drug RU-486. He pulled out an ax before being forced to the ground by the owner of the building who fired two warning shots from a shotgun.[22]
* June 11, 2001: An unsolved bombing at a clinic in Tacoma, Washington destroyed a wall, resulting in US$6000 in damages.[20]
* July 4, 2005: A clinic Palm Beach, Florida was the target of an arson. The case remains open.[20]
* December 12, 2005: Patricia Hughes and Jeremy Dunahoe threw a Molotov cocktail at a clinic in Shreveport, Louisiana. The device missed the building and no damage was caused. In August 2006, Hughes was sentenced to six years in prison, and Dunahoe to one year. Hughes claimed the bomb was a “memorial lamp” for an abortion she had had there.[23]
* September 13, 2006 David McMenemy of Rochester Hills, Michigan crashed his car into the Edgerton Women's Care Center in Davenport, Iowa. He then doused the lobby in gasoline and then started a fire. McMenemy committed these acts in the belief that the center was performing abortions, however Edgerton is not an abortion clinic.[24]
* April 25, 2007: A package left at a women's health clinic in Austin, Texas contained an explosive device capable of inflicting serious injury or death. A bomb squad detonated the device after evacuating the building. Paul Ross Evans (who had a criminal record for armed robbery and theft) was found guilty of the crime.[25]
* May 9, 2007: An unidentified person deliberately set fire to a Planned Parenthood clinic in Virginia Beach, Virginia.[26]
* December 6, 2007: Chad Altman and Sergio Baca were arrested for the arson of Dr. Curtis Boyd's clinic in Albuquerque. Altman’s girlfriend had scheduled an appointment for an abortion at the clinic.[27]
* January 22, 2009 Matthew L. Derosia, 32, who was reported to have had a history of mental illness [28] rammed a SUV into the front entrance of a Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul, Minnesota.[29]

And this is all JUST within the United States. You may be ignorant which is understandable if you have not been exposed to the truth, but for the love of God, do NOT be willfully ignorant. And what you claim to know about abortion is nothing more than your brainwashed, unfactual, ridiculous opinions. You have nothing here, no ammo, no back up, nothing. So leave, you have been proven wrong and you are done.

Also this:

"you must hold the pro abortionists responsible for the numerous times men have killed or abused their girl friends or wives,who refused to have an abortion."

Again, don't be a freakin moron, come on now. "It's not at all their disrespect for women as human beings or that they are misogynistic pigs that caused them to kill their girlfriends, but let's blame anyone who thinks abortion is ok because that is clearly why the men felt it was ok to kill them!! YES A+B=14!!!"

You cannot even begin to fathom the idiocy surrounding that statement. You would be laughed out of a courthouse if you were to ever use that kind of defense.

Anyhoo, now that I have won this debate (and it wasn't hard) I am done feeding you, troll. You can keep on talking to yourself for all I care because you pose no threat to me since you will never get your way. We will continue to move forward. Your ass-backwards justifications and lifestyles are over, now and forever :)

Thank you to PP for all the wonderful work you do. Please continue to help the women who come to you for help, and keep educating those who do not yet know the truth, and keep fighting those who choose to ignore it. Live long and prosper, and don't forget...TRUST WOMEN.

Cool the language, Britt, please. Using disparaging and degrading terms like Morons, and other epithets that I consider unfit to repeat here does not contribute to the debate. It only further puts in relief the bankruptcy of your cause.

I repeat the acts of violence you describe were not committed by people who were representing the Pro Life movement. They were unstable people who acted on their own and were roundly condemned by Pro Life. The The incidents I referred to took place inside abortion providing facilities, and the deeds were done by clinic personnel, who, by any reasonable standard, have to be considered part of the movement.

Again, I ask you to temper your language.

I am not going to argue with you about this anymore. I cannot have a respectful debate with someone who does not even see basic, elementary logic being ignored in their arguument (i.e. the only people who would feel the need to attack abortion clinics or abortion providers are those who are against abortion, aka pro-lifers) I only use civil langiage with those who prove that they deserve my respect, and you started off on the wrong foot as soon as you got here with your mightier-than-thou-shame-on-you-women-attitude. I have had civil debates with pro-lifers before and believe me, they are not like you. They think individuals like Boehner are despicable, and they do not believe abortion should be banned for good, regardless of circumstance. They are good people. You are just an ignorant troll.And that's not my fault, that is yours so deal with it.

Pro-life from conception to nine months. You are on your own kid from birth to death. Pro-life concern from the radical right for you.

Thank you robert, took the words right out of my mouth. That is basically the slogan for the "pro-life" movement :)

As a very well informed (as far as politics, world issues etc are concerned) 17 year old high school senior, this is how I see things, if a female is raped or a victim of incest why should she be forced to go through the process of giving life to someone she could never love? if it's her choice to give birth and go the route of adoption, cool. but if she rather abort the fetus, cool as well. it is her choice what she wants to experiance in her life. If a female is just someone who does not feel it wise for her to go through giving birth at her time of life then she should have that choice of aborting the fetus or not. It's HER CHOICE, no one else should choose what to do with her own body.

See back in my younger years (all of 3 years ago) I was a pro- lifer, but I was very naive and only did it because thats what I was told to think. But I am well informed on how sex works, I know what different forms of birth control there are & how to protect myself. After I relized how misinformed the pro life side of the debate was I bacame a pro choice kinda gal.

If we begin having sex education in more schools I believe that the teen pregnancy rate & abortion rate will drop dramaticly. I am one of the rare few that attended school where sex education was taught. I am one of the even rarer few that already had the "talk" with my parents & understood what sex & birth control is. Many teens aren't as lucky. So instead of teaching "girls stay away from boys because they have penises & you will die if they touch you. & boys don't think about touching any girl because you will get her pregnant and you will become a teen father" that is beyond idiotic! I say more sex ed, less idiots!

I plan on being more active in the advication of safe legal abortions & sex ed in schools,I plan on making my voice heard!

Right on Cori! Way to wake up from the lies of the "pro-life" movement :) It is happening every day, more and more people are discovering the truth and the brainwashing is beginning to wear off. I have faith that one day, women will become full, human citizens of the world and will not be expected to be living incubators. Women are women (aka: people), embryos and fetuses are embryos and fetuses (aka not people) An egg is not a chicken and an acorn is not a tree. Address them as they are, and no more forced-births!

Groping hands and intrusive pat downs, we need to chill. Everyone.

I know of a once pro-choice person who became pro-life after she reevaluated what she came to see as nothing but "lies" also.

Her name is Jane Roe. She was/is hardly alone either by a long shot...to match those with stories about how they came upon being pro abortion after once being pro-life. Ying and Yang, ya know.

Maybe some feel indoctrinated, on both sides, but it doesn't change the fact of what goes on with abortion. Nothing can or will change this fact. Undermining it won't work either I'm afraid. Projecting it as something common, safe, going to happen anyway? Null and void attempts to try to legitimize it as no big thing. It is. Rebelliousness in the nature of those composing the human race. Nothing more.

I was, myself, for a short time, in the pro choice bleachers.

There still seems to be this quick and popular notion that pro lifers don't care or give a rip about those already born. We do. You have to.

A bad apple dont spoil the whole bunch. But no, using violence is not the way to go to change minds. No.
At the same time, abortion is a violent thing. It's the worse kind in fact. Let's condemn both...violence in and out of the womb. Deal?

Spare the what ifs.

We do care both for the born and unborn. Don't believe otherwise. Once and for all. No qualifying. No comparing. No further attempts to convince; for after all, are there, are there pro choice folk that care neither for the born or unborn? Let's be equal in our assessments.

I have worked taking care of handicapped children. Just another fact.

Jane Roe was "Won by Love". (recommend her book) And so it is...that with love, shall be the only way to win over the pro choicer. Their hearts are very hard. Very.

I will never cease in my convictions. Never fall to misunderstanding or confusion or fear. I know love works. I know it isn't easy. I will not fall for easy acts shown by others that appear as love. Abortion is not love.

If you believe more people are tilting pro choice...

It is easy to love the lovable. Speaking about love or showing something that looks like love is easy often. Real love is when you have to sacrifice! It's when you have to go out of your way, get up in the middle of the night, to accept what is difficult for you to do, to trust when it actually subjects you to endangerment even sometimes. Etc. Etc. Are your circumstances more important(?).

Loving a child should be easy, born or unborn. (It is if our hearts are right). If it isn't easy? Love it even more anyway because it is hard! Because it is difficult. Search your heart, why are you adamant in the pro choice rhetoric? Why, really, are you pro choice? Why are you really pro choice?

There is no beauty brought to the world through sacrifice? Stay focused.

Love.

You may resent others "telling women what they can or can't do with their bodies". Resentment isn't love.

Get over it and love.

I do not see myself above others. I am not. I have never invoked religion to present my case. I am not perfect. None of us are.

@ carmen

lets say for a minute that you are right and that "pro-lifers" actually do care about the baby when it's born. So why do most pro-life candidates vote against making birth control part of a health care plan? Why do they vote against better welfare options yet they think it's ok to give tax breaks to the wealthy? Why do they vote against health care for the ones who need it most...poor single moms who have families to take care of because "pro-lifers" are trying to make sure that every woman is nothing more than an incubator/child supporter for the rest of her life? Or worse yet, why do most of them vote against better prenatal care options for women??? This is because the actual reason behind the pro-life movement is NOT to help women or their children. It is an anger and hatred of women who go against the grain when it comes to their sexuality and it is a desire to punish these women by making them bear the consequences of their decision to be sexual beings. This is the only answer, because most of these idiots who are preaching against abortion are also preaching against sex ed and promoting the idea of abstinence until marriage and they are the same people who see sexual women as "sluts, whores" and "sullied" beings.

carmen, you do seem like you could be a caring person because you seem to have a true desire for helping the babies once they are born. But you have to realize that you are the minority, not the majority. And I ask you this, how are YOU going to help the next child who is born into an environment which is not conducive to their living a happy life? how are you going to help that mother who had other dreams and aspirations in her life that may have had nothing to do with having a child? how are you going to make sure that child is well cared for the rest of its life and will not grow up resenting its mother or itself, becoming part of a gang, murdering someone, all because it was born into bad circumstances which caused this person to go south.

A wise person once said this to me. Unless anti-choice individuals are willing to happily do all of the following things to back up their bark, then they really dont care about the woman or child at all and they have no say in this matter.

"1. Making sure ALL women have access to the most effective birth-control methods available, 2. Offering a viable plan for funding and... implementing programs to reduce the number of neglected, abused and abandoned children, 3. Making sure that children available for adoption find permanent, functional homes, and 4. Ensuring that any woman forced by their policies to carry to term the result of rape or incest has access to medical and psychological care. If the anti-choice advocates cannot provide appropriate, viable and acceptable alternatives they need to back off."

And that is just the basics. You people don't realize how large of a claim you make until you actually think about the consequences. I have gone there, I have thought about the consequences of my decisions on this matter, and I have no problem with any of my convictions. How about you?

I am pro-choice because I believe women are human beings with human rights and not some object made for housing a fetus against their will for the benefit of someone elses feelings/opinions. I am not "pro-life" (aka anti-choice) who believes that a potential human life with no set purpose takes presidence over the life of an already existing human being with goals, responsibilities, aspirations, duties, and people who care about her!

You say you are not perfect and you do not think you are better than others but in actuality you do. Your tone is heavily ridden with "you poor thing, let me help you because you don't know any better, i know what is best for you poor, ignorant child" (the same attitude most of the "pro-life" movement has towards women, infantilizing them since they think women are weak in body and mind and cannot take care of themselves so they need the government in their bodies taking care of things for them) and so until you are ready to stop being so self-righteous and start conversing as if you actually care what the other side has to so, I don't care to hear it. I stay out of your body matters, so you stay the hell out of mine and every other woman's. You can't have it both ways, that is called hypocrisy and dictating.

You are not talking about love, you are talking about force and coercision and focing guilt. You cannot love something or someone you don't have any feelings towards or if you have resentful feelings towards. I do not love you because I feel nothing for you, except frustration since you just don't get it. A woman who is raped feels resentment for her rapists essence being inside her and if she is forced to have that baby, she will forever see her rapist in him. It's like forcing a woman to relive her rape again and again and again because she will never be able to put it behind her. Yes, some women will not blame their child for what happened to them and will choose to love them, but that's just the point - CHOICE!!! Would you force someone to love the murderer of their husband? Would you force a slave to love their master? Would you force an abused woman to love her abuser? No, that is ridiculous. You do not force your values on anyone even if you think your values can save them (even though in this case, your values cannot) Abortion is not murder. If it was, it would be banned. You lose, end of discussion.

Would it be surprising if the Catholic church wanted abortion outlawed so priests could rape more children?

Anyway, I personally can't know everything about what it is like to get pregnant (being a man), but I believe abortion is necessary in this fangled generation, and outlawing it would be one of the biggest mistakes our country can make. If it is outlawed, all I can see is another Prohibition era (with abortion instead of alcohol), since back-alley abortions will still happen; then that law will have to be repealed again.

Thus, I don't suppose overturning Roe would be something we would all agree to do.

I can certainly say, though, that if I were a woman who had just been raped, I would not be at all willing to listen to a bunch of people - least of all those so-called "pro-lifers" (who do not live up to that name in many cases) - telling me what to do with my body. Call me an anarchist if you want, but I wouldn't let a single anti-abortion ("Pro-life" my ass!) activist tell me what to do if I had been in that case.

Seeing that I am a man, however, I strongly believe that if my girlfriend ended up getting pregnant due to some stranger raping her (or even if it were me, although I'd never do that), she should have to endure that kind of vitriol, and I would step in to help keep those people away if I had to.

I don't believe I, or any other man, deserves the right to force his spouse/girlfriend/family member to follow through with an unintended pregnancy, and I certainly don't believe it is right for anyone to force women who don't even know him or her in real life to carry a child to term. "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

Minor edit to my last post:
"she SHOULDN'T have to endure that kind of vitriol"

Beautifully spoken Larry :) I applaud you for being someone who genuinely cares about the well-being of women.

Dicten, a quien puedo preguntar?