We have a winner (winning bumper sticker slogan, that is)

Catchy slogan, but what about the facts? We know the creature in the womb has his/her own DNA, own blood type, has a heartbeat after a few weeks and many other things in common with all of us. We know that modern obstetrical textbooks (approved for training obstetricians) refer to the creature as a new human life from fertilization. It is on these and many similar 19th, 20th and 21st discoveries that McCain/Palin base their stand regarding abortion, ascerting that every human being is entitled to legal protection from the beginning of life till its end.

None of that knowledge was available to people in the 15th century. Much of it was discovered within the past 40 years. Abortion, however, dates from ancient times (perhaps even predates civilization)when no such knowledge was available, and when no one knew when life really begins. Abortion is more like a 21st century B.C. solution to 21st century A.D. problems.

Ah, Joanne. I should have known I hadn't seen the last of you after our last exchange eventually went off the main page.

You might want to try saying something new next time you post a comment. You've stated when you think human life begins over and over again, and it's starting to get boring reading the same thing each time. I'd love to debate you on a different subject, particularly one in which you will not say "my opinion is proven by many sources; it is fact".

Sorry RonPaulisOverrated. Thanks for the invite, but I have no interest in discussing any subject other than the one at hand in this blog. Also, sorry if my repeating the the facts of prenatal life bothers you, but, I believe they badly need repeating. And I never submit opinions that are not researched and capable of being backed up from sources outside myself.

Joanne,

Regardless of argument you make, why do you or anyone else have the right to interfere with other peoples lives. WHy not keep your beliefs to yourself and your god and leave others alone? You are very wrong to interfere in others lives.

Meghan, have you ever stopped to think how juvenile the "leave us alone" argument is? When human life is being taken, we cannot leave it alone. Would you say we should just leave the military alone if they start slaughtering innocent people in some foreign country? How would you respond if they simply said,"well you don't have to join the military. Just keep your beliefs to yourself and God and leave us to do as we please"? The taking of life is always and inexpressibly serious matter, and it can never be considered private prerogative of anyone. The slave owners would certainly have loved for the abolitionists to leave them alone, and just be content with not owning slaves themselves while their southern fellow-countrymen continued their work and carried on as if slavery were just their private concern. What strange blindness pervades our society today that we overlook our constitution in this matter?

Ha! I knew you were going to say that. I saw it coming a mile away. Meghan wrote about "interfering in others lives", and I thought, "Joanne's probably going to say for the 1,000,000th time that she doesn't understand how 'protecting human life' is interfering in others lives."

And that's exactly what you wrote. Well, allow me to say, for the 1,000,000th time, YOU AREN'T PROTECTING HUMAN LIFE. I don't feel like typing the same explanation again, so go read what I said in our last exchange.

And quit comparing abortion to slavery. You sound as crazy as Tom DeLay when he compared his own indictment to the Nazis.

war victims? are you seriously saying this based on what is going on right now? I guess it's ok to go to war as long as it's without the intent of killing or sacrificing lives (if that exisits in war) but if it happens, so be it. Does that make for a free conscience for religious leaders? And it seems ok to most conservatives to go to war if it's for the greater good, even if lives are at stake and innocent people are dying on both sides.

It absolutely is a personal and private matter and you can not in any way compare it to war or slavery. And you have simply displayed what I can't stand about mixing church and state, your belief on life is derived from your religious beliefs and should not interfere with other peoples beliefs, not all people have your beliefs, luckily we live in America. It doesn't bother me that you are anti-choice - what bothers me is that you impose it on others and seek reform, I absolutely think you should keep your beliefs to yourself and congregation.

Sorry again. Modern medical technology affirms that "a new human life begins" at fertilization. Why don't you take issue with medical science if you thank it is on the wrong track here? Is modern medicine beguiled and oppressed by primitive religion? If so, it's time for action because it is leading an awful lot of people into error.

There is another way, of course, in which modern technology underscores the reality of life in utero. When a pregnant woman sees her baby in 3D ultrasound, she stops calling it a fetus or a product of conception, and says "that's my baby". I have witnessed that more than a few times, and I suspect you may have too. that is why the vast majority of women who see their babies via ultrasound will refuse to abort no matter what. Anyone who says the unborn are not our brothers and sisters is either in denial, or has an agenda to push.

Oh, RonPaulisOverrated (may I refer to you as RPO from now on for the sake of brevity?) I must correct you. I did not say that I don't understand how protecting human life is "interfering in others' lives." I said protecting human life is not 'bullying'. Protecting human life often involves interfering in other people's lives, and we all approve of it, and none of us consider it bullying. Need I provide examples, like the police officer interfering with the life of a homicidal maniac by arresting him?

Again for the 100,001th time, abortion is the taking of innocent human life and those who promote it cannot be "left alone" any more than the slave owners could. And, by the way, I will not stop comparing abortion to slavery because the comparison is eminently warranted. And the lessons gleaned from that disgraceful episode in our history need to be applied to the disgraceful episode of abortion on demand in which we live today.

Sure, RPO works fine, although you might want to add an i for is.

Now then...

YOU ARE NOT PROTECTING HUMAN LIFE. I keep saying it because you never even consider that possibility. What you don't understand is that what you're doing doesn't come across to everybody as "protecting human life". We see it as being forced to give birth (which is painful enough by itself) against our will. People who get abortions DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A BABY. They CANNOT TAKE CARE OF A BABY. The baby WILL NOT BE PROPERLY RAISED. I have told you this again and again. This is not "protecting human life". That's not how everybody sees it.

Don't tell me "we all approve of it". We don't. That's why there's a massive nation-wide movement to keep abortion legal, that's why there are feminist blogs on the internet advocating choice.

I think what you fail to understand is that NOT EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU. And there's nothing you can do about it. Let it go. I advocate choice, but I'm not going to force you to be pro-choice or to have an abortion. That's against the purpose of our movement. It's YOUR CHOICE. You're pro-life? I don't have a problem with it. It's your opinion, and you're free to have it. But you want to force us to accept your OPINIONS as facts. That's what we have a problem with. We have our opinions, let us live with them.

Leave Meghan, and the other people who don't agree with you, alone.

Joanne,

If you and others are so interested in protecting human life, why doens't your church and others ask people NOT to join the military? There is always the possibility of killing innocent people.

I will never agree with you, and I will fight for womens rights as long as I can.

Joanne,

Also may I mention I have 2 children and I have gone through the wonderful experience of pregnancy and birth and ultrasounds but that doens't change my view on a woman's right to choose and the same goes for more than half our country.

RPO, I know you see it as being forced to give birth, and I know many women feel passionately that it is, but it's not. No woman if forced to give birth against her will in this country, because no woman is forced to become pregnant against her will. The only way we can become pregnant is by engaging in sexual intercourse (except for IVF etc). We are not forced to have sex, are we? If anyone does force us it is a serious crime. Once we do have sex and become pregnant, however, we carry a new life within us. It is our responsibility to protect it. Sexual intercourse should be reserved for those occasions in our lives when we are prepared to accept new life and care for it. Free sex is not so important that we have to sacrifice 1.2 million unborn per year so we can freely indulge our appetites, or men can indulge theirs. That's not rocket science, but a matter of simple human justice. We are not meant to be addicts to sex - however much our modern culture wants us to believe we are - any more than we are meant to be addicts to coke or heroin or alcohol or anything else.

The idea that we are being forced to give birth against our wills just doesn't hold up. I think it stems from the assumption that somehow or other we are being forced to have sex against our will. True, modern society does glorify unrestricted sex and promotes it as the norm, and because of that some of us can feel pressured because "everyone is doing it". But that is a false value and there is no need for people to subscribe to it, when it leads to a million plus deaths per year in utero.

I was checking out this sight for my political science class... wow, some of the stories that i guess are supposed to be moving are sick! like the woman who talked about how she found out her child was going to be mentally retarded, so she aborted him for her family... Gross!!!!!!!!! thats really sad that this site uses stories like that to promote a political issue. Hopefully it sets off some alarms for some people cuz that was just wrong!

joanne does have a lot of good points. I think i agree with her. If medical science proves that life begins at conception, that's good enough for me. And isnt um... RPO?... forgetting about another persons choice... I guess if women have a choice to do what they want with their bodies, shouldn't the baby have a choice. Maybe that's an absurd thing to say. But I'd be pretty pissed if someone killed me. I dont think I'd ever choose to die. It would be pretty sad to explain to your children, meghan, that you had an abortion (hypothetically).I can't imagine kids saying, "Mom, what happened to our baby brother?" How would you reply? "well kids, I didnt want him anymore, so i chose not to be pregnant anymore. I have the right to choose if i want to have a baby." "awww mom, but I wanted a baby brother, and i'm sure that baby brother wanted older siblings, too. Is he alright though?" "umm... your brother is dead..."

medical science proves it's a potential life first and can not exist without the mother at almost any stage without artificial support which in most cases ends in some sort of impairment. The mother is first and foremost!

Adam,

Yes, exactly, I do have the right to choose, it may not be your choice but we live in America and we are allowed these choices. I would tell my children that they have the right to choose to with there bodies what they wish and b/c of that choice they have many more options as well. If that is your view than you live your life accordingly but it seems to me you have more to think about than what Joanne googled and rebutled with.

I wanted a baby brother? Life is way more complicated than this, you need be more realistic. If only it were as simple as you put it and sugar coated. I think to myself lately since Sarh Palin became nominated - if my daughter was raped and became pregnant where would we be if SP had her way? It scares me. I would tell me daughter it's your choice and I will support you no matter what. What would you say to a rape victim that became pregnant? What kind of mental impact of birthing a child and going through pregnancy after a rape would that have on the mother and how would that child feel in life? I think it would be tragic! What would you say to the girl that got pregnant from a father or uncle? Tragic! I suspect you aren't a parent Adam, but one day when you have a daughter you may feel the same way.

I dont know if you know this but an abortion has a very severe impact on the mother, the child (of course), the relatives... everyone is affected by it. I just did some research of my own to find out about roe vs. wade... because i really do not know a lot about the court case. I wasnt alive yet. But the woman,Norma McCorvey under the pseudonym of Roe, is now prolife. Why? because of the fact that people were coming up to her to say. Thank you so much. If it werent for you, I wouldnt have aborted my child. After hearing that for about the thousandth time, she says, "what have i done. I am responsible for the deaths of millions of lives and people are coming up to thank me."

Yes Adam, that is true. Norma Mccorvey (Roe of Roe v. Wade) now travels the country promoting the pro life cause. Also remember Roe's companion case, Doe v. Bolton. The case is famous for the unbelievably broad definition of threats to health which would justify a woman's having an abortion. Just about any inconvenience, physical or psychological a woman might experience (even morning sickness) because of pregnancy is sufficient reason to abort. Since every pregnancy involves some inconvenience or limitations on the mother's activity, any woman automatically is entitled to an abortion on health grounds alone.

Well the Doe in that case was a woman named Sandra Cano. Sandra, like Norma McCorvey, changed her mind for the same reasons that Norma did. And now, she, like Norma is active in the pro life movement. On Monday Aug.25th, 2003 in Atlanta Sandra filed a Rule 60 (unsuccessful) Motion to reverse the Doe v. Bolton case. These two stories, along with similar stories of regret from millions of aborted women across the U.S. testify to the growing realization that abortion was not a blessing for women, but a trojan horse. Glad you raised that point Adam.

meghan, I'm very glad you are seeing things my way. Our children have a choice over their bodies. No other human should ever take that right away! Ever! Not even their mother. If you have a child in your womb, your child has a right to choose what is to be done with their body. If someone asked you when you were in your mother's womb if you would like to be killed, I don't think you'd choose abortion. I'm sorry I make the issue so simplified but it's hard not to. This website turns people who are prolife into Nazis against freedom, but pro life people are only speaking up for those who can't speak. They're protecting the choice of the one who it belongs to... The person who's life is at stake How scary would life be without abortions? Aren't both sides of this issue trying to minimize the need for abortions anyways?

Adam,

Your semester has just begun, before you start taking sides I hope your university will cover the entire picture, I went to one of the best Catholic Universities in the Nation and they did.

Factual studies show that making abortion illegal does not stop women from having them, instead it increases the likelihood that women will be injured or die. Additionally, laws that restrict or ban abortion disproportionately affect poor women, because they cannot afford to travel to areas where abortion is legal.

Also, most psychological research conducted regarding outcomes and adjustment of women who choose first-trimester abortions over the past 30 years has reached the conclusion that abortion is “psychologically benign” in the short term (Major & Cozzarelli, 1992) as well as in the long term for women (Burnell & Norfleet, 1987). Not only is this percentage low for PTSD in and of itself, it is also less than that national prevalence rate for PTSD.

The research on denied abortion is more extensive, and suggests that women who are denied abortions experienced long-term resentments toward their children. Additionally, their children encounter social and interpersonal difficulties into adulthood (Dagg, 1991).

I'm being very attentive to your argument and i have more questions this time. And very curious at what university you went to (I'm really just curious. I don't think I can use that against your argument). Before I give any rebuttal, I have more questions about the facts. Like when was abortion legal and in what country. If you're talking about the US then I would think that the info would be too outdated. Especially if there is also scientific fact now saying that the life begins at conception. A new human being is formed with its own DNA. So when do you say that the child is considered to be alive. It's common sense to say that the baby is alive during the time that the woman is going into labor, which is before the baby is born. So if someone got an abortion then... that would be really sad because the baby is just about to be brought out into the world but just as he/she is starting to anticipate a different life coming for him/her, his/her life is taken away from him/her. But if you say that it is a baby when the woman is going into labor then at what point does this baby become a baby in your mind? To me, you can't really draw a line except at the conception.

To me, this is still a very simple issue. The entire argument is simplified into, "do you believe that when you are pregnant, there is a child inside of you?" That is what determines the sides. I chose my side because i of course believe that he/she is a child at the moment of conception. I think you said something about it also being proven that a baby cannot support its life without its mother when he/she is in the mother's womb. I agree of course. lol. But I also do not think a baby could survive without some one to take care of him/her after he/she is born. So this is nothing new. But I do not believe that just because a baby cannot support its life makes him/her subhuman.